Irish people are ridiculous. They gave away their sovereignty and independence to a federal European dictatorship yet get offended over being referred to (correctly) as part of the British Isles…ridiculous

@John. Do you know anything about Irish History at all? Referring to Irish people as British caused 700 years of wars. I don’t think its ridiculous to assume we might be offended as it took that long to shake off the title,

Being offended is a choice. You could also choose to grow up and get a life

@Paul – exactly, some people need to cop on to themselves. There’s a whole lot more important things to be getting upset about.

@Christopher
You might want to do a bit more reading of the history books, if you think:
(a) referring to Irish people as British caused 700 years of wars – as much blood was shed over the last millennium between Irish tribes as there was between any Irish nation (a cultural concept dating from the 1600s) and those from Great Britain.
(b) an “Irish person” is someone who is of pre-1167 stock – the typical Irish person is a mongrel of Gael, Viking, Anglo-Norman, and English & Scottish settlers, with a dollop of continental European thrown in.
(c) Ireland was unitary and under British rule from the 1100s on – the truth will surprise you and hopefully fascinate you.
You could start with the history of your own distinguished surname!

Tell them Brits to get their feet out of our Irish Sea then!! Such nonsense…

I thought they were in jail for cutting up some fella and putting him in a suitcase and now I find their cutting up readers of the journal on where in the world we are and what our proper title is. I must ask Theresa Lowe.

ha ha,ha funny comment

*as

LOL

Most sensible comment so far!

of course it is but why all the outrage over an entertainer’s throw-away comment?

Agree Dave, It should be now called Bankers Isle….n

Because geographic convention is that an archipelago is named after its largest island. In this case, Britain. British Isles makes no insinuation that the inhabitants are British. Irish people just have an almost unbearable chip on their shoulder when it comes to the B word.

Most of the people who get their knickers in a twist about it won’t understand that sentence, let alone the dichotomy.

They appear to overlap in this case.

It depends on how you look at it. I agree that it is an outdated term and the reason that it is outdated is not because the geography has changed but because of political sensitivity. For me it doesn’t overlap.

yes it is – North America.

I wonder how well that would go down if she said that at a gig in Toronto… It’s exactly the same thing geographically. I’m sure she would be corrected quite swiftly.

If she said “people from all over North America”… Doubt eyebrows would be raised…

@Nick, I meant if she referred to Canada as America.

If Canada had once been part of the USA and some people there had a massive chip on their shoulders about it then I suspect that using that term would go down like a lead balloon.

If she said “the Americas” she’d be right
If she said “North America” she’d be right
If she said “America” it would be interpreted as USA seeing as “the americas” would be more widely used for the totality of north & south america.

So you’re not really comparing like with like.

@Damocles Massive chip on their shoulder?So you think its fine for one larger, more populated island (Great Britain)to claim geographical hegemony on a smaller island (Ireland)? In geographical terms, this island is Ireland.It is not part of Britain as that is a completely different Island.Take cultural and political ties aside and we are geographically two different entities.What right has Britain to claim that both islands are British or part of the “British Isles”.Its a grandiose term that has been pushed into the lexicon by the more dominant and populous culture!

“geographical hegemony”, the trick to a good online wind up is a vague degree of innocuous sanity. Don’t push the envelope.

What I meant by “geographical hegemony” was an influence exercised by one nation over another in relation to its geography.We, Irish, certainly didn’t coin the phrase “British Isles” nor do we, in the vast majority, say we are from the “British Isles”. The fact our island is called Ireland and we have an Irish sea between ourselves and the island of Great Britain make the term “British Isles” even more ludicrous.Also, just thought I’d say,you come across as a bit of a smarmy t*sser. Good Evening!

Oh, you’re serious.

So what if we didn’t coin the phrase? That’s neither here nor there.

If you look around this thread you’ll see that it’s origins are very much older than the British. Yes, the British did specifically use it as propaganda…. A long time ago. Calling Ireland a part of an archipelago does not mean that the islands of GB and Ireland have melted together any more than Sardinia and Corsica.

And so what if someone might happen to think you’re British? Correct them. I find it difficult to distinguish between Eastern European accents – a measure of tact works usually.

Speaking as a Canadian, we rarely refer to the USA as America. In fact, we often refer to Canada as being the best part of America. If that comment had been made in Canada, I imagine few would have been upset.

100% agree with you!Wish I could have put it so easily!

I see geography classes were well spent on you.

What? Are we like Muslim extremists now? That we have to be Molly coddled lest our feelings get hurt?!

I didn’t see anyone threatening her with a fatwa? … yet.

I should note that when I say “came into being” above I mean in an official capacity.

I hadn’t heard IONA before, but I like that.

How about just, the Irish Isles or the Celtic Isles? You could be sure that would upset even more people in the UK and Northern Ireland, no matter what descriptive name is chosen it will upset someone.

Or how about the Anglo Irish Archipelago?

What do you mean technically?Under what criteria?British Academia?The fact they have a population 15 terms ours is exactly why its called the British Isles.They have more weight and have had historically.Its Britain and Ireland.I don’t live in Britain so my Island is therefore not British.Its not a political thing..its geographical!We live on the island of Ireland, no other island near or far has any effect on that fact.

I wonder if we’ve asked Iceland if they’d like to be one of these Islands of the North Atlantic. It is, after all, in the north Atlantic.

I think the Scots, Welsh, Cornish and Manx might have a problem with the term Anglo Irish Isles…

There is only one Anglo-Irish isle!

Thanks Seanie.

Fair point Brian O’D

Like ‘Braveheart’. ‘if we can’t get them out, we’ll breed them out’

Only when they go for a swim in it, it’s bloody freezing!

I agree with you. My understanding is the British Isles refers to Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and its territorial islands around its coast and does not relate to Ireland whatsoever.

“The term ‘British Isles’ has its origins in a political union that no longer exists.”

Val, 2 comments above, disagrees.

It’s still largely irrelevant IMO. I don’t think I’ve ever met a British person who ever lorded it over me and I now have 2 brothers both with British children who went to England in the 80′s and early 90′s to pursue work that wasn’t here.

I suspect many in Ireland have relatives who’ve followed similar paths. This “allergy” to all things British really does show the lack of thought that many put into the bigger picture. We have links with the British that extend way beyond a bloody history. Yet still, while we post MLK’s and Charlie Chaplin’s equality promoting speeches on facebook we’ll still continue to do our best to distance ourselves from the British as much as we can. Quite sad really.

The allergy to things British is not just because of history. We’re often mistaken for British just because we speak English and come from a small, not populous island that many have never heard – or believe is actually part of the UK. That’s not always helpful either commercially or socially, especially when dealing with former British subjects.

“North Atlantic Archipelago” might be closer, a peninsula has a land border

Sometimes it’s better to have good manners than be “right”.

Must remember that myself….

“These Isles” is also sometimes used.

Well, I call it Britain and Ireland.I couldn’t care less what it says in an atlas or what someone from Academia calls it.This island is Ireland in geographical terms.The larger island to our right is Britain hence Britain and Ireland. Thats it!No British Isles or Atlantic Archipelagos.Britain and Ireland.

The singer was wrong in my opinion and obviously ignorant to Irish history and culture.How pedantic would it be if we all decided to call it the Irish Isles including England,Wales and Scotland?It would be factually wrong never mind upsetting to British people!The British have a habit of claiming things that they do not own and if you disagree with that open a history book.

Celtic Archipelago is another one. Unfortunately some soccer fans forget that the English are terribly proud of their Celtic origins, and Boudica’s brave struggle against the Romans. :(

@Avarus. I too see it as logical. Britain and Ireland. Two countries with their own names and if a pop star can’t get that right then they are thicker then I thought.

Cheers Christopher!! The fact they have a population 15 terms ours is exactly why its called the British Isles.They have more political, cultural and academic weight and have had historically.Its Britain and Ireland.I don’t live in Britain so my Island is therefore not British.Its not a political thing..its geographical!We live on the island of Ireland, no other island near or far away has any effect on that fact.

No Avarus, that is not why it is called the “British Isles” by some. Usually rabid post imperial basket cases. It’s an historical anomaly. Not only because of history, but because of our desire to build an independent future it’s not surprising that many (most?) Irish people would like to distinguish this island from Britain and this archaic name does not help.

Aye, but Britain and Ireland is geographically incorrect as they only refer to 2 out of the 6000 or so islands in the grouping. What about the Isle of Man? Thats not part of Britain, the UK or Ireland.. yet it sits in the middle of the archipelago. The Greeks referred to Ireland as Little Britain and to the British mainland as Great Britain prior to the establishment of the Roman Empire. The word Britain is itself a corruption of the Welsh Prydain. Through linguistic development the P was dropped in favour of B, the -ain was dropped altogether and the D was transformed into a Z to become the modern Breizh, the Breton name for Brittany. So linguistically speaking, Ireland is Britain via Greek, our larger neighbour is Britain via English and Welsh, and Brittany is also Britain via Breton and French. The first use of the term British Isles occurred in Roman times, although it’s first use in English occurred only in the 16th century. Although the concept of a British identity did not evolve for a further 2 centuries.

Brian, geographically incorrect by who’s standards?My point is it doesn’t matter what anyone else calls it, historically or otherwise,whether they be Greek, Breton or British.Our island is Ireland.We call it Ireland.Their island is Britain.They call it Britain.The Isle of Man can be what ever the Isle of Man wants to be but don’t just assume to throw us under a title that we were never asked about and have no intentions on being called.

Eh, it’s geographically incorrect by geographers standards as it ignores the vast majority of the islands in the archipelago. What bout Shetland, Orkney, the Western Isles, the Isle of Man, the Aran Islands, the Blaskets, Achill Island, the Isle of Anglesey, the Isle of Wight, the Scilly Isles, the Channel Islands, etc. None of them are geographically part of Ireland or Britain. Politically speaking there is no such entity as Britain either. By the way, instead of getting so hot headed you should reread my post where you’ll see I never expressed an opinion as to what the isles should be called, simply what they shouldn’t be called based on rudimentary geography. My points about each entity having an equally valid claim to be called Britain, while factually correct, was stated with my tongue firmly in cheek.

The term British Isles predates the existence of the UK. It was created by the Romans who christened these islands Great and Lesser Britain.

You mean in the same way that the independent country of San Marino which predates Italy by over a millennium is part of the Italian Peninsula and yet none of its citizens care?

The origin of the term is political.

Trying to pretend that geography is totally apolitical is a fool’s errand.

Of course it’s political if non Brits are being referred to as Brits cop on

Of course it’s political if you are being told you are from somewhere you are not!!!! we are from the island of ireland. sin é!

Perhaps take it up with the Ancient Greeks who named it that in the first place. Only uneducated people would confuse non-Brits with Brits as you so rationally put it, or do you shout I’m Irish at every opportunity lest people get you confused? Beidir go bhfuil nios mo muinineach agam im’ náisiúntacht?

The origin of the term is geographical as I explained further up in the comments. It was turned political by England who used it to justify the conquest of the rest of the islands.

If you include the Channel Islands then it’s a political term since geographically they’re part of France.

Actually no. The Oxford English Dictionary defines teh British Isles as “a geographical term for the islands comprising Great Britain and Ireland with all their offshore islands including the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.”

“not part of the United Kingdom. … They are dependent territories of the English Crown, as successor to the Dukes of Normandy.” Info from http://www.royal.gov.uk/ (British Monarchy).

Not part of the UK is not the same as part of France (see above) and indeed the Duchy only consists of those islands, apart from the title itself which was last used as 1789 and even then only an honourific one.

Actually no. The Oxford English Dictionary defines the British Isles as “a geographical term for the islands comprising Great Britain and Ireland with all their offshore islands including the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.”

“not part of the United Kingdom. … They are dependent territories of the English Crown, as successor to the Dukes of Normandy.” Info from http://www.royal.gov.uk/ (British Monarchy).

Not part of the UK is not the same as part of France (see above) and indeed the Duchy only consists of those islands, apart from the title itself which was last used as 1789 and even then only an honourific one.

I prefer “The Isles, of which one is British, with the other partitioned into British and Irish rule respectively, however the status of this partitioning is still a bone of contention.”

Rolls off the tongue.

A lot of Irish people are morons

Unfortunately a lot of so called republicans measure their republicanism by how much they hate the British. Then they will re-qualify “British” as “English” when you remind them about their Celtic shirt and look confused completely when you remind them of the Manchester Utd sticker in the back window of their car.

It’s a geographical name. You may as well be looking to change the word for “West”.

Ireland can be annexed by Britain and it will stay the same…… So, why not? Its economically perfect!

Her reply on twitter is perfect. What a non issue this was.

Tomy most Celtic supporters are part of the Irish diaspora, although not born in Ireland they are probably more Irish than you, Celtic is an Irish club on foreign soil ( I hope this message is not removed or is it too radical for the Journal )

Well thanks very much for your judgement on how Irish I am. (I am by the way Irish, and I think of nobody as being any less or more Irish than anyone else – an Irish citizen is an Irish citizen)

An Irish club on foreign soil? First I’ve heard that one.

Do you mean that Frasier Forester, (an Englishman) is more Irish than me?
Or how about Adam Matthews (Welsh) or Victor Wanyama (Kenyan)?

To be fair though, you did say Celtic SUPPORTERS. Are these supporters looking to get Celtic to play in the League of Ireland?

I have nothing against Celtic supporters or anyone who enjoys any sport but the idea that you would try to detract from my still intact point by making such a limited argument shows that you’re pretty much decided on the issue – if so, fair play if you have a point of view but your reply is even more flawed than the one which was (rightly) removed.

All I can say is thank God those commenting above didn’t have to fight for our independence because their cowardice hidden under rhetoric is clear to see. We are Irish not British. If it offend you go to Britain then.

Welsh and British geographers named the islands that around the time of the Tudor invasion of Ireland. Its not Geographical except in a British Political perspective in the same way the size of the UK fluctuates on maps as they had a tendency to make the host country more exaggerated. You’ll notice on Fallon’s Atlas its called ‘British Isles & Ireland’ as in our perspective we’ve stopped using English maps and now theyre reffered to as the IONA islands. Just because one country called things what it wanted and makes their own country appear larger on a map does not make it ‘Geographically correct’, only in their perspective and how widely their maps were distributed and taken as fact. Greeks called them Lerne and Abion, the romans; Pretannia, we dont call them the British Isles and so geographically we are correct as its only relevant to us… in my opinion. :)

The green monkey I just hope the Celtic supporters in Britain are not the same moronic Celtic supporters in Ireland.. Most Celtic supporters I know are an embarrassment to this country!!

@Christopher – so what you’re saying is that those who see this as having no bearing on peoples’ day to day lives are cowards and should leave the country?
Really?

Not jumping on an anti-british bandwagon and screaming “800 YEARS” at the top of my voice does not make me less of an Irishman, does not make me some kind of “Brit-lover”. While I recognise the bloody history that existed between Ireland and Britain I have no desire to be a part of continuing the pointless side taking by regarding this as some kind of massive international incident. It’s not – and it’s not one to over-react on either.

Ireland was never part of Britain, it was part of the UK. Britain refers to Scotland, England and Wales.

Tell that to the British government at various times.

Relax.
Calm down.

“The British (mostly the English) just wanted to kill us all.”

Yeah, and still do.

The term existed almost 2 millenia prior to the establishment of the British state and over a millennium prior to the first evidence of an English language.

But between the end of the Roman Empire and the Tudor conquest of Ireland there was no collective term for the Islands.

A Tudor geographer/propagandist started using the term as part of a whole British Empire myth-making exercise. The term “British Isles” – in it’s modern incarnation – is a political term. Easy illustration…the Channel Isles are usually included but they’re geographically part of France.

“Britain and Ireland” is shorter, less controversial, geographically accurate and just plain more polite.

Missing the point, but good rant.

Take it easy, Ed! For the record, I agree that Ireland is in the British isles. But only as long as people have been calling it the British Isles (which is probably since British conquest of Ireland). I mean you could use the Malay achipelago to refer to Indonesia, Malaysia and Papua New Guinea. But then again, you could just refer to the individual countries, as most people do. You could call Haitians Hispanolians, but people don’t really use the word Hispanola anymore as it doesn’t make as much sense now (as the island is no longer owned completely by Spain). I think the British Isles was more accurate when Ireland was part of the UK. It doesn’t make as much sense now as it kinda implies British ownership of the Isles (I wonder why only Irish people don’t like the term). So, while it may be geographically accurate to say it, that doesn’t mean it has to be said. Societies evolve and change. As do the names.

A writer for the Rockall Times, no doubt.

With variants reaching much much further back. Language evolves.

Jack I’m sorry but your an idiot! I’m entitling you an idiot.End of.Sorry!Are you happy with your assigned title by me?No.Well I’m not happy with Ireland being bunked in with England,Scotland and Wales and named the “British Isles”. It really is that simple.

Yes, you are.