Sunday 26 May, 2013
THE TAOISEACH AT the Citizenship Ceremony in Cathal Brugha Barracks in Dublin today where people from nearly 100 different countries were awarded Irish citizenship. He is pictured here with Maria Joseph, originally from India but now working in Tallaght Hospital. Images: Mark Stedman/Photocall Ireland.
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This has potential as our own version of “Kim Jong Il looking at things”… http://bit.ly/z6R7mC
I note, no answers, no apologies, and MORE attacks..
What in this fiscal compact is designed to help us out of this situation?
There are heavy fines for not keeping up with repayments, and they are automatic with this treaty. There is nothing to restrict the reckless lending that led to the crisis, and nothing for growth – so how exactly does it help?
With regards referendum or Dáil agreement.. We already know there are ministers in opposition. Whether TDs in Labour or FG will support the members of their constituency that voice their opposition in light of their party alliegances remains to be seen..
Hardly representative of public input if you can’t count on your councillors to represent you..
If it is legal (and they’ve done their best to ensure it is) then the Dáil opposition and petition to the President is all we have enshrined in the constitution. We could all march on the Dáil and say no but would they listen? They (politicians) rarely do. We could petition them, this is rarely given any notice either – and these are the only methods by which we can assert our rights to reproach without moving into more drastic measures. I do not agree with any form of violence, and do not feel it should ever be necessary, but I’m also inclined to think that a protest should be engaged on a constructive level by government and have their concerns heard and adressed. That is how it’s supposed to work.
Again, i would appreciate it if you leave your assumptions of me out of this, and don’t force them down my throat please.
I’m still waiting for those apologies Mark.. Sorry to have upset you, there’s no need to take it so personal, I am merely referring to what you have said, not you personally.. I don’t even know who you are for goodness sake..
Shanti
Your language is nearly conciliatory on this occasion given the rubbishing you have offered for my factual views.
The Compact will bring about Budgetary change in each of the Eurozone States and minimize the chances that the irresponsibility of Ireland or Greece will be allowed recur.
No it definitely won’t cure everything and no it doesn’t deal with certain matter such as growth but what we desperately need first is a stabilization of the Eurozone area.
Because of austerity it is very hard to implement new measures that will bring about positive change without hostility on one part and sabotage by vested political groupings on the other. For example the sight of micheal Martin calling for a referendum is revolting in its hypocrisy and it’s so obvious. On the other hand Sinn Fein want a plebiscite because they believe they can damage the Government for their own gain. What about Irelands needs? The shimmers don’t care as long as they grab the headlines.
What’s wrong with some or all of that?
I agree, for Michael Martin to call for it is hypocritical given his role in signing us up for this mess.
As for the fiscal compact – we have diverted way off course in terms of the fact we were talking about the difference between this photo and the one of Sarkozy displaying direct dominance over our Taoiseach on a world stage and him lapping it up.. But to answer your question, from what I can see they are merely strengthening the very measures Germany got let off with.. It’s not exactly anything new.. More of the same only stricter enforcement when it’s someone else.. More bowing to corporate entities and less thought spared for those most vulnerable in society. Hardly equal and hasn’t got a great track record now has it?
It was a huge red herring of course, and I should not have risen to it.. This is the Daily Edge section Mark, it’s supposed to be light hearted.. And to stay on topic is part of the comments policy.. Sarkozy made Kenny look like a prat. He’s now an internet joke, so even if you missed the conference, it’s still it’s over the net.. Reading the body language it did not seem like banter, it seemed like a dominant gesture, this goes on all the time but it’s not usually so blatantly accepted.
And it’s still a million miles away from the photo above, you had no grounds to connect the two in the manner you had done – that was the point I made.. Note, I’m not trying to use a red herring here, I’m trying to steer the topic back to its starting point..
With regards rubbishing your factual views, I have rubbished poor logic and nothing more. An illogical fallacy is the sign of a flawed argument or error of reasoning, and in some cases is used deliberately as a means of manipulation (when used on those who have not studied logic – which is many people).
This alone is what I have attacked. Not your views, just your words and mode of argument. You say to me that I am almost conciliatory, but it has been you that has been personally attacking me whereas I have stuck to the argument rather than attacking the man. There has been no need for your hostility toward me personally, my entire argument has been based on your words and nothing more.
Why you could not extend me the same courtesy all along I do not know..
Again Mark, I ask you to leave the “people like you” comments out of this as it is clearly an assumption..
A bit of horseplay is nothing bad in and of itself, but there is a time and a place for these things. And at a meeting where the explicit intention of our government was stated to be working this around our constitution, it seemed badly timed at best.
My objection was not to the horseplay, it was that the body language of Sarkozy spoke volumes in terms of the power play. He isn’t even looking at Kenny when he is doing it. This is a common method leaders use to assert their dominance, it also includes cupping the hands, leading by a gentle hand on the back, etc.. These are well known and established modes of interpreting body language.. These little “tells” have been researched for many years by psychologists, and it is a recognised field of study as I’m sure you are aware.
To quote a journalists defence that he is obviously liked means nothing, of course he’s liked – he knows his place. This is what is shown by the exchange.
The fact that Kenny appears to lap it up signifies his willingness to concede to the dominant play of Sarkozy.
This is too a measure of the arrogance of Sarkozy, and I would have equal criticism for him.
I don’t care for Gerry Adams insinuations that they were acting like “eejits”, had he referred to the body language and contructed his argument better I would have had more respect for him.
I had hoped a dignified leader would be aware of these subtle power gestures and have acted accordingly.. I would also have expected an elected leader to be able to handle himself with more grace when confronted with it in the Dáil, instead he resorted to the cheap tactic of the ad hominem attack and the dramatic red herring.
I am disappointed that a man who was a background in teaching, seems to make his arguments in such a poorly conceived manner, by resorting to fallacy to make his point it forces me to look at him as disingenuous. This is a man who should be well versed in logic, he SHOULD know that these are merely cheap shots.
Again, I base this upon his words and actions alone, nothing about the man personally, I have it on good authority that in person he is indeed a very likeable gentleman.
As for it just being people like me, that’s a lot of people.. In case you hadn’t noticed the little meme circulating on the Internet, it’s pretty widespread.. Even amongst people not in Ireland..
It reads along the lines of “there’s a good boy Enda”, which is what the body language suggests.
To Mark Rodgers and Shanti Om – can you please stay on the (very light-hearted) topic. Shanti – I do appreciate that you pointed this out earlier to Mark and that he *started* it but guess what kids, I’m gonna end it. ;)
Thanks very much,
Susan
Editor/Mum
TheJournal.ie
What a lovely image and on a very special day for this lady who has just become a citizen of Ireland.
Could someone please forward these photographs to Gerry Adams so that we can get his outrage on record.
The idea of Adams putting his arms around any of my friends or family gives me the shudders given his background.
An Taoiseach clearly proves that he is a naturally tactile person with a warm and welcoming demeanor.
How pleasant to see the friendliness of other European Leaders towards him. This should be seen as positive for him and for us during these difficult times.
Would you stop wasting all those perfectly good fish! You’ll have to throw those red herrings back under EU quota laws!!
There is a time, a place and a context in play here. You are comparing the Taoiseach making a welcoming gesture to a new citizen in the country he represents, to the president of France making a very dominant gesture toward our Taoiseach in front of millions worldwide, at a conference where our government have basically conspired to sneak a program of austerity past the public vote.
See? Context, time and place – two extremely different situations. To compare the two makes no logical sense.
Somehow I don’t think Gerry Adams would have anything negative to say about the pictures above, Kenny is holding a ladies bag for her – at arms length, and putting his arm around her shoulder in a welcoming manner. It’s a positive image regardless of how we, the taxpayers, may feel about the man.. But that whole bit was just a massive red herring anyway wasn’t it?
Your personal feelings about Gerry Adams are your own, you’re entitled to them and you can say whatever you like so long as you’re sure they aren’t libellous :)
I don’t care what anyone else thinks, this guy is possibly the greatest leader in the world, ever!
Shanti
“….at a conference where our government have conspired to sneak an austerity plan past a public vote…….”
I believe I have the quote as accurate as possible and it begs a number of simple questions . First I must ask if you have been inhaling or absorbing any noxious gases recently because I am certain that the only austerity programme in existence was established by the last Government under agreement with the Troika as a condition of the Irish Bailout terms.
The present Government of the Labour Party and Fine Gael both indicated clearly to the electorate that they would be complying with the targets set out by the Troika but would vary the terms as much as possible.
I am not aware of any agreement that this State has entered into beyond or outside of this other than the Fiscal Compact which awaits the opinion of the Attorney General as to whether such is a Constitutional amendment requiring a referendum or merely an Agreement needing primary legislation by Dail Eireann.
Now Mr. Shanty I believe you are misrepresenting facts and truth and there is a smell of rotten fish from your argument.
You state that you use this endearing name to mark the boundary between a private and a public life.
My view is that you have no choice but to disguise your real identity.
•”First I must ask if you have been inhaling or absorbing any noxious gases recently”
Straight out of the hatch with an appeal to ridicule. To respond to your further comment about the bailout terms, yes, the current austerity package was implemented as part of the bailout program. This bailout is unsustainable, and that’s not from me – it’s from many leading economists like David McWilliams et al.
•”I am not aware of any agreement that this State has entered into beyond or outside of this other than the Fiscal Compact which awaits the opinion of the Attorney General as to whether such is a Constitutional amendment requiring a referendum or merely an Agreement needing primary legislation by Dail
Eireann”
Yes, now you’re getting there.
This arrangement was deliberately constructed with a view to avoiding a referendum, and as a result remains quite vague. We are at the mercy of the Attorney Generals decision. If they say it’s in keeping with the constitution then this massive plan, which as has been pointed out over and over does nothing to address the core problems, just tighten up disciplinary measures that were already in existence, goes ahead. It does nothing to protect us from the cause of the crisis – as in, banks or corporations behaving recklessly. In the absence of plans for growth, this creates a cycle of perpetual austerity as the economy contracts.. And the people have no say in it. Whatever about the legalities, what about the sheer scale of how this affects the people, do you not think we should have a say? Where’s your “moral compass” now? Or for that question, which way does yours actually point?
I’m not going to claim I’m an economist, my comment referred to the sneaky, shady means by which this is being pushed, they are not interested in engaging with the nation, explaining the pros and cons and taking our input. They are only giving us a false dilemma, suggesting there is only A or B when there is also C, D and perhaps other options too. Remember, there are debt cross cancelations, not repaying unsecured bondholders (as the IMF agree should be looked at), there are many options our government are simply unwilling to consider in their apparent need to tow the EU line..
“Now Mr. Shanty I believe you are misrepresenting facts and truth and there is a smell of rotten fish from your argument.”
In light of my response, care to reject or stand by that comment? And why do you assume I must be male? It’s Shanti by the way, it’s the name of a symbol, as is Om. Its not Shanty as in shanty town.. (was that what you were insinuating the last time you made snide comments about my user name? You never answered)
•”You state that you use this endearing name to mark the boundary between a private and a public life.
My view is that you have no choice but to disguise your real identity.”
Please explain.. Why should I reveal my identity to you? How do I know you are really Mark Rodgers? I am upfront about my use of a pseudonym by using one that is obviously not a real name. For all I know you could be called Conor Humphreys and just use a realistic pseudonym.. People do that too, and that’s far more disingenuous.
My reasons for keeping my contributions on a public forum seperate to my personal life are valid, and personal. You do not truly know them and again, you are only using it as a means to try and discredit me. My words should be enough. Your insistence upon revealing my true identity infringes my legal right to privacy.
Whereas I have stuck to debating what you have said, you have resorted to attacking me personally, many, many times. Had I no respect for your freedoms I could have reported you each time and had you barred from commenting here, but I did not. I respected your right to comment and stuck to the debate in a non fallacious form – unlike you.
You still have not explained your “but do you not realise that you could only be self employed or unemployed” remark from the other day by the way.. Nor have you apologised for deliberately misquoting me, you have made reference to it, but not even acknowledged it or accepted responsibility. and you try to lecture me on morals, what about basic manners?
Now Mark, man up and face your responsibilities, and remember when speaking to me to leave the personal attacks and illogical fallacies at the door.
A final comment on the horseplay which took place between Sarkozy and Kenny. A leading Irish journalist described the usual playful contacts with members of her professions and Enda as always including physical contact with the males frequently getting a playful punch.
Kenny is clearly liked by those he meets and we have to remember that he has been on the European scene for many years. Sarkozy in my opinion served up a boyish gotcha to Kenny and people like you are endlessly recycling the views of a man with a much greater understanding of physicality than Kenny or Sarkozy.
If you were right about both the gesture and the intent do you not think that the French opposition in an election year might not be critical.
No it was only Sinn Fein that had the hard line view and you cannot leave it alone. Stop now please before it becomes gangrenous.
Shanties are usually a collection of ramshackle shelters to house the impoverished and the miserable and is an appropriate way to describe your argumentation and misrepresentation of facts while offering nothing but negative spin on the efforts to bring us out of the crushing economic difficulties caused by the greed of many.
These are your words;
We are at the mercy of the Attorney General!
The people have no say in it!
They are not interested in engaging with the Nation!
What a load of absolute garbage. The Fiscal Compact has been published and will be the subject of extensive public scrutiny through Dail debates in both Houses of the Oireachtas before being signed by the President or put to the people by way of a referendum if the Attorney General believes its contents are Constitutional in nature. Never in the history of this State has a “popular” vote of the people been sought as in our Democracy that is the Functional responsibility of our Parliament.
Where would you stop in such a wish. Would the proposed septic tank charge be put to the people rather than being debated and voted upon in the Dail?
Under your proposals the opposition become irrelevant and the voting decisions of the people in General Elections become less sovereign than the views of opinion polls.
Yes Shanty are your views.
I apologies for any typos as I am seething at your arrogance.
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